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 We are losing the browser war
 by Anonymous, in Editorials - Sat, Jan 27th 2001 23:59 UTC

Anonymous has had his eye on his Web server logs lately, and is worried at the shift in the ratio of Netscape to IE browsers hitting his pages. He worries that, if we're not careful, this trend on the desktop could undo all the progress Linux has made in the server room, and he offers some ideas on how we could fix things.


Copyright notice: All reader-contributed material on freshmeat.net is the property and responsibility of its author; for reprint rights, please contact the author directly.

I have been watching netcraft.co.uk. It is pleasing to see that Apache is increasing its slice of the pie with almost every new report.

Unfortunately, I have also been looking at Web server access logs, and I have been seeing a decline in the use of Netscape with a corresponding increase in Internet explorer. That is a problem.

Without a decent browser, it will be difficult for alternative operating systems to remain viable. We owe the old Netscape a great debt of gratitude for releasing a Linux version of Netscape so early on; it quickly made Linux a viable desktop, and later did the same for the other free Unices. Only a few wise men seem to realize this.

To paraphrase Linus: "It's the desktop, stupid." Backend infrastructure can be replaced quickly; user desktops cannot, so we are vulnerable to being leveraged out of the server space. Microsoft could use its increasing dominance at the client side as a wedge to lift Linux out of the server room. FreeBSD's motto "The power to serve" means nothing if it can't serve up the proprietary or patented protocols spoken by the clients.

We need some nontrivial presence on the client side to prevent the bastardization of protocols and file formats. Don't think that just because a file contains the pixy dust of XML it can be made proprietary. I am convinced that there are people patenting DTDs as I write this.

In the newer Linux distributions, we have an operating system capable of holding its own on the desktop; now we need a viable browser. Unfortunately, Netscape and Mozilla have lost their way. Netscape had its air supply cut off by a better-funded opponent. Mozilla... well, I am unsure what to make of it. I am guessing that when it was released it was a mess understood by a few. Now a couple of valiant individuals have undertaken the thankless task of cleaning it up. They might even be succeeding.

Unfortunately, it appears that Mozilla still carries the legacy of some poor management decisions. I think (and I might be wrong) that the plan was to turn Netscape into an operating system of its own. In a horrible way, they have succeeded; Mozilla is about as bloated as some of the largest operating systems.

The problem is not only that Mozilla is big and slow, removing it as the browser of choice for older and embedded systems (exactly the place where Linux is a viable contender), but also that it is difficult to understand. Heck, simply compiling it can be tricky. Getting up to speed on Mozilla appears to be difficult, so contributing is difficult.

I believe that the strength of the Open Source movement is that its components are highly modular. Forget the big projects such as gcc or the Linux kernel which need to be run by experienced wizards. Most Open Source projects are small; a talented programmer can understand the entire system. If contributers get in on the ground level, they too can keep track of their own part. The modularity is much stronger than the (IMHO rubbish) OO methodology advocated by dubious software engineering textbooks. An Open Source system breaks into objects at the executable level -- a level which both the developer and system administrator understand -- not at lower levels where it slows down development and execution.

An FTP server is an object. An FTP client is an object. The interface is well-defined in a couple of RFCs. Don't like a particular server? Plug in your own! It doesn't matter if the client is written in C, Python, Perl, or Intercal. It doesn't matter how the internals of the FTP server are structured. It's an object. No need to rely on inconsistent mangling of C++ classes in obscure libraries with undocumented interfaces and side effects. No need to worry if the object fails; if the FTP client crashes, the server keeps running. No esoteric marshaling or transport mechanism tied to a particular language; objects communicate via vanilla Unix pipes or TCP/IP.

This point is really important. As long as the maintainers understand the internals of their object/package and there are not too many dependencies, Open Source works beautifully. Don't like sysvinit? replace it with simpleinit or minit. Think you can do better than syslogd? Replace it with syslog-ng or idsa. Think inetd is vulnerable to DoS attacks? Try xinetd or tcpserver. Don't like bash? Try zsh or tcsh. Think wu.ftp is an exploit waiting to happen? Install oftpd or troll ftpd. We have an amazing amount of biodiversity (or should that be cyberdiversity?.

Open Source objects seem to do best when a replacement can be written by a smart teenager during summer vacation or as an after hours project of an experienced sysadmin. The replacement need not do all the original does and won't be bug free, but it should be enough to show promise. Later, it will become large and nastier, but the skeleton will be the same. This is probably the core of the Open Source world, even if it means that there are too many half-finished IRC clients.

Back to Mozilla. Mozilla is much larger than most Open Source projects. Becoming a contributer is hard. Writing a replacement is harder. The people at the W3C appear to have fallen into the same trap as the people who design C++, and have added more and more baggage. No doubt they were under pressure to formalize the extensions added by Netscape, Sun, and Microsoft, but still...

A browser is no longer something which speaks HTTP and renders plain HTML. It now needs to do Javascript, cookies, Java, ActiveX, Flash, frames, cascading style sheets, and XML disasters. Building a replacement browser is no longer a vacation project for a couple of smart teenagers. Oh, sure, none of the extensions are essential to a browser, but only a minority of sites don't make use of at least one of the features.

So, we have a problem. Mozilla is too large to attract casual programmers in the numbers it needs, and the Web itself consists of too much cruft. The entry cost of the Web browser business is considerable. Large companies like large entry costs since it keeps out the smaller players, including the volunteers. Microsoft can throw programmers at Internet explorer. Programmers at large corporations have to wade through spaghetti code whether they like it or not, and paid programmers can spend their days doing regression tests. Volunteers like doing neither of these things.

The free software community desperately needs a decent Open Web browser to stave off the .net effort. It is probably the biggest software gap we have. Solving it won't be easy, and losing it might be fatal.

I have thought about a number of approaches to the problem. One is to have more people working on Mozilla. Mozilla is being cleaned up -- some subsystems are probably quite solid by now -- but it is still large and slow. If you think you are a hotshot programmer, consider helping out Mozilla. If Mozilla makes a comeback, you'll be a hero.

Another method is to simplify the Web. We need to lower the entry costs for the people writing alternative browsers. Web sites need to loose the Flash, the Javascript links, and the font tags. That too is hard work. If you have a Web page, resist the temptation to add clever stuff to it. Disable Javascript, Java, and remote fonts in your browser. Ignore sites which rely on these things. If you visit pages which do, drop the author a line and tell him about it. Email is best. If you can't be bothered with email, try the approach I use: I request links such as http://www.somecommercesite.com/using/javascript/has/just/lost/you/a/customer/ or http://www.someidiot.com/lose/the/flash/or/lose/this/viewer in the hope that somebody reads the error logs.

Making the Web simpler is difficult, but we have a window of opportunity -- cell phones and other wireless browsers are still too small to run a large browser, and WML is (rightly so) falling from favour. A restricted subset of HTML might just work. Maybe the cHTML used in Japan might be a good candidate (do we have a Linux cHTML browser?). We could kick up a stink about accessibility -- put pressure on sites to keep it simple so that blind and partially sighted people have a chance at viewing them. Emphasize the risks of running Javascript and Java on the local machine. Point out the risks to ecommerce sites. Point out the savings of turfing the Web design division to the CEOs of failing dotcoms, letting them spend more funds on the backend and order fulfillment. Inform people that fancy Flash pages and Java applets won't be viewable in 20 years. Lead by example. Full marks for freshmeat using HTTP authentication and not cookies. Use the "best viewed with any browser" button. Focus on content, not looks.

And then there are the alternative Web browsers. Konqueror is showing promise. Zen has the right approach. Express might be worth taking up again. Maybe we could learn from the NCSA/Apache experience. When NCSA httpd was no longer viable, some smart people put together Apache. Apache has something important going for it -- it can be easily extended. It might be worth trying the same for a new Web browser. Make it simple. Use wget to fetch the pages. Pipe it to a simple caching program. Have the caching program pipe the output to a simple renderer -- the GTK HTML render or maybe a diet gecko. Control the pipeline from a simple X interface, and we have a Web browser. X has a neat feature which lets a window of one application swallow the window of another. One of the people who designed X wondered why it wasn't used more often. Think about it -- for an HTML form input box, instead of using a crummy text widget, we could spawn an xterm the exact size of the text box, and use vim or any editor to fill out the form. It would be nice. It would be easy to maintain. Crashing the editor would leave the browser running.

In the last few years, the Open Source community has made good progress. We now have several impressive operating systems. Apache is the most popular Web server, but we need to have a viable Web browser, be it a working Mozilla or a lighter alternative. Without it, we don't stand a chance against .net.


Anonymous is a student at the University of Anystate, where he is writing a dissertation on Primary Colors. He does fundraising work for AA/NA in his spare time, and composed most of the music written in the Middle Ages.


T-Shirts and Fame!

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[Comments are disabled]

 Referenced categories

Topic :: Internet :: WWW/HTTP :: Browsers

 Referenced projects

Galeon - A GNOME Web browser.
Mozilla Seamonkey - A Web browser and email client.
Netscape Communicator - An all-in-one browser and communications suite.

 Comments

[»] My Suggestions on the Browser War
by Adam Shapira - Jul 28th 2003 10:11:44

I agree with you that we are loosing the Browser War, and that
we must somehow find a way to take back the Browser War or
else the results are to be disastrous.

My concurrence even extends to some details of the strategy
you suggest. But there are some things you said which I must
beg to differ on.

You say that the way to do it is to get rid of all nifty
features, such as Flash, Java, Javascript, and Fonts. I must
say that I don't think this approach will work.

Getting rid of things that really *don't* cause compatibility
problems, such as Font tags, I don't think will help at all.
And as for getting rid of things like Flash will buy time,
that will *only* buy time. It won't solve the problem.

The problem with your idea of going back to a bare-bones
version of the Web is this: a strategy, in order to work,
has to enlist the co-operation of millions of Muggles who
don't care about the idealogy of what's behind the software
they use: and who won't know that they *need* to care
until it's way too late.

Sorry to tell you this, but the features that Flash and
the alike offer are things that they won't just give-up
for the higher cause, and if we just give those up without
working toward a *viable* and *suitable* alternative, we'll
just get left behind in the dirt.

Instead of seeing that the *whole* web be brought down to
bare-bones, it would be far better to see that the framework
of the browser *it's self* is *simple*, and that the *interface*
for writing *plug-ins* is simple too. By that I mean that if
a competent programmer wants to write plug-ins for this Open
Source Browser of the Future, he/she shouldn't have to spend
more than a few *hours* reading to learn how, and it would be
*best* if he/she can learn in *less* than an hour. (And it's
important to note that the reading-times mentioned do *not*
apply to speed-readers but to *regular* readers.) Also, that
browser shouldn't require any special SDK for developing
plug-ins unless that SDK is *easy* to both download *and*
install.

And one should outsource as much of the nifty-browser features
of HTML as possible. But I do *not* advocate getting *rid* of
such features *entirely*. First of all, you'd be throwing out
the good with the bad if you do that. But furthermore, you'd
never get a critical-mass of people to co-operate with a plan
that limits their web-experiences to that which can be coded
in bare-bones HTML. We won't win the Browser War that way.

But one thing I *do* agree with you 100% is that the W3C is
long overdue for replacement. They've dropped the ball,
undoubtedly. But here is how I think they've dropped it:

-> Their specifications are over-bloated. They go far beyond
what a weekend teenager would have time to read.

-> They failed to take a firm-stand when it came to setting
standards, and instead came out with wishy-washy (and
therefore even *more* bloated) standards.


Here's the components of how *I* think we need to go about
taking back the browser war.

1> A new Open Source browser. It can be either a Web browser, or
a broser for an alternative to the web. It should be on it's
own a bare-bones browser, but it should have an interface for
plug-ins. But a simple interface, that any *competent* programmer
can learn to use with *very little reading*.

2> Set up a new standards-body to de-throne the W3C. Make this
Standadrs Body a vigilant one.

3> Putting together a library that people can use to easily write
platform-independent plug-ins. Once again, it has to be easy
to learn how to use this library.

4> Work *really* *hard* on replacements for plug-ins who's
manufacturers have been *especially* un-cooperative with the
Linux community. For instance, Flash (unless my research is
terribly flawed) must go: because Macromedia has failed to
release authorning tools for the Linux platform. But I maintain
that though Flash *should* go, it *won't* go until we have a
viable *alternative* to flash.

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[»] Netscape or MS IE
by Phactorial - May 26th 2001 07:12:09

The bottom line is that MS IE is more used than Netscape due to the fact that it eats much less RAM than Netscape. If I run another application with Netscape I'm always vulnerable to a crash on my SuSE. But Netscape is much more feature packed than MS IE and lots of todays http protocol standards are based on some innovations from Netscape. MS IE is just another browser with less features than Netscape. It's nothing new, and it never did set any type of new innovation or standard.

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[»] WAR??? NO!
by iox237 - Feb 26th 2001 20:57:35

A WAR ??? WHY ? I'm not a expert, but i understood that a main force of the open source model is standart/normalisation. When you get it, you can start dreaming of extensive modular structures, and easy cooperative developpement.I'm pleased to use linux because of its wide variety of specific standart compliant applications. I won't regret the loss of (mozilla, navigator)some all in one mammouth. That kind of animal is not adapted to the dymamic of the Open source environnement. Maybe there is a war, but it's a netscape/microsoft merchantile private story. Nothing to deal with Open source. And don't be abused, many merchantile organisations "surf" on the Open source wave, keeping in mind a strong desire of hegemony. Open & hegemony, you believe this ? We shouldn't talk of war, if we do, we have to consider netscape as a monopol's pretender(we do war to win, otherwise we are psychopathic). I'm gracefull to The open source community for that wonderfull OS they brought to life, opening a windows of absolute transparency on network and computing technics thus on technical macro-systems organisation(les macros-systèmes techniques.GRAS.Presses Universitairs de France). Linux gives the opportunity and facilities to watch and learn. This has no price, or a very expensive one if you follow an "academic" and discriminatory way. Open source incarn (for me)a necessity of a democratic kmowledge exchange, keep it out of merchantile war, or you will kill it. This is a unique opportunity to merge a true meaning of democraty and progress. We all need it, don't waste it. PS: I remember what symbol was netscape, as I remember its magnificent one's entry in nasdaq. gecko is not so bad ;-) my english is far from perfect, don't feel lazy to correct me . C'est parceque la propriété existe qu'il a des guerres des émeutes et des injustices. Saint Augustin(354-430 ap JC) It's because of property than exists wars, riots, injustice. Saint Augustin (354-430 A.D)

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[»] opera tor calling
by mikejenn - Feb 21st 2001 01:46:55

agree with doc lodge ick absolutely. beta 5 opera
worth a 2 meg download trial. it's small, it's quick.
linux port also free with ads - no fee like windows.

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[»] Like it or not...your cheese is being moved!
by DrLogik - Feb 19th 2001 22:24:45

Well, sounds like the cheese is being moved. What are we going to do? Spend our energy telling everyone that moving the cheese is wrong? That's is the wrong direction? That's it's bad? Wake up and drink a big cup of Joe folks. Java, Javascript, CORBA, Oracle...these are the things that run corporate America. Yes, where I work a few folks run Linux but most run Solaris on cool Sun boxes. And guess what? The rest of the 99% of the company runs NT at their workstations. And guess what else? It ain't bad either. There are a few things that are the "Status Quo" today. They are: #1 The "dot com" days are gone and never coming back to their insane levels. #2 Customer support is big. Linux has none...save the rogue Red Hat's and Corel's out there. Customer service is what big and medium size corporations want and need. The Linux community (as awesum as it is) cannot provide them that. #3 The browser war is over. Bill and Steve from Redmond. WA won the contest. They knew what the majority wanted...and they gave it to them. The rest of the arrogant, egotistical computing community didn't want their cheese moved, thought they had the only cheese available and when presented with a competing cheese, just kept saying "Our cheese is better", put blinders on and didn't step on the standardization bandwagon. #4 Opera huh? Opera what opera? Opera browser. You know, the company that wanted it's browser to be CSS compliant so they hired the guy that wrote the specification. What's that got to do with Linux, our browser problem and this editorial? Their small, their talented, they have the best browser on the market and they have a Linux version. So? "Their" browser still almost fits on a 3 1/2" floppy disk. Uh, ...yeah. Mozilla, bloated? You bet. IE taking over the world? Faster than you can spell "George W". My point? Point our sites at Operasoftware.com. They may have what we're looking for. Face it folks. Unless Linux has a breakthrough in the next 2 years, the thought of it becoming a serious contender to Windows is silly at best. Opera has the "bones" we can build around. Might we want to ask them to dinner?

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[»] Holy Hell
by R. Charbonneau - Feb 10th 2001 20:19:15

I think before I begin I should mention that I don't use Netscape on Linux anymore. Netscape is an ugly, bloated sack of beans and I'm glad to be rid of it. Instead (as many before have mentioned commenting on this editorial) I use Konqueror. Now Konqueror does not just "show promise". It's one of the best damn browsers I've seen. I hate Netscape due to it's speed, Mozilla is just silly, Opera is wishful thinking, but Konqueror is light, fast, renders very quickly and carries over the widgets of my desktop. I used to use GNOME, then WindowMaker, then just straight Enlightenment but now I use KDE2 full time because it's truly the best thing Linux has in desktop today. Having it's own fully featured web browser that not only compares to Netscape (as the "other" browser defaulting on Linux) but it beats it. There are a few bugs yes, but hey it's open source software, there's always a few. They accept that, fix them and move on. I don't think we're losing the browser war. The war ended a long time ago. Windows users will use MSIE, and I think Linux users will just eventually use Konqueror. Mozilla is allowed to go die now. Thank you. :)

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    [»] Re: Holy Hell - Konqueror will Conquer!
    by MattFred - Feb 16th 2001 11:52:40

    *** ATTENTION ***
    People, and fellow KDE 2.x users:

    This is where the browser war starts to get REAAALLY fun.

    I dropped Netscape, I droppoed Mozilla, I dropped Opera, I droppoed WINE running IE, I dropped WINE running netscape, all because I found a wonderful little friend named Konqueror.

    He looks right, he feels right, he renders pages correctly, it is compliant with DHTML / JavaScript 1.2, CSS, MUCH better than Even Netscape 6, (The popout boxes on php.net actually pop out!) I can watch and interact with a flash movie, I can load java applets, I don't know what anybody is complaining about. -- OH WAIT!! Yes, I do. People who don't keep up to date on the production of their windowing system.

    Konqueror is IE for the Linux user, it works, its here, USE IT and SHUT UP!

    http://www.kde.org

    Btw, did I happen to mention KOFFICE as well?

    -- Matt
    > I think before I begin I should mention
    > that I don't use
    > Netscape on Linux anymore. Netscape
    > is an ugly,
    > bloated sack of beans and I'm glad to
    > be rid of it.
    > Instead (as many before have mentioned
    >
    > commenting on this editorial) I use
    > Konqueror.

    --
    -] mfrederico [-

    [reply] [top]


      [»] Re: Holy Hell - Konqueror will Conquer!
      by virtualizer - Feb 17th 2001 04:11:54


      > *** ATTENTION ***
      > People, and fellow KDE 2.x users:
      >
      > This is where the browser war starts
      > to get REAAALLY fun.

      Yep! Fun is right. No more :)


      > I dropped Netscape, I droppoed
      > Mozilla, I dropped Opera, I
      > droppoed WINE running IE, I dropped
      > WINE running netscape,
      > all because I found a wonderful little
      > friend named
      > Konqueror.

      I then dropped KDE, because its a pain in the a??, and really slows my machines down. I do appreciate the effort to make KDE completely speech driven (QT/IBM), that's why I will have a look at it in a few months again.

      Otherwise, I am not using any graphical browser, because I am 70% of my time in wearable computing environment. Simply running an RemembranceAgent, infobot, surfraw and links gives you everything you need. fmII is a brilliant example to view in links. You get all the info you need. No bandwidth consuming pictures and all the stuff.

      Sorry for beeing console junkie, but are you having graphics on your keyboard (exept the M$ key).

      Text has the best mental similarity to the task of browsing information, thus less mental swapping occurs and therefore little distraction from my main task is implied.

      [reply] [top]


    [»] Re: Holy Hell
    by Adam Shapira - Jul 28th 2003 10:31:14

    No way! Konqueror it's self may be a good browser, but I'm not going to use it unless I can use it from within GNOME. I mean, don't get me wrong: I'm glad your experience with KDE was favorable. But every experience *I* have had with KDE has left me with a *nasty* taste in my mouth. Now, I might try using Konqueror from within GNOME's ability to emulate KDE. If it works (and if I find Konqueror to be as nifty as you find it) then I'll continue using it. But after my last few experiences with KDE, I don't like it one bit, and I won't use Konqueror if it means having to switch to KDE.

    [reply] [top]


[»] How to win the Browser War?
by Noel - Feb 6th 2001 10:42:47

You can't expect to win the browser war on Linux. The IMHO only way to attack the market position of the IE is on Windows Mac and Linux together. A real competitor to the IE must be stable, likable (OpenSource :o), small and has to run an Windows and UNIX. At the moment Mozilla is not very stable and far apart from being small. There are several other browsers out there but they don't run on Windows. Thus, they will never be a threat for the IE simply because Windows dominates the whole destop market. (Port GTK to Windows and Mac or use wxWindows) If MS winns the war they can push their own 'standards'. And since there is a country where you can hold a patent on nearly everything this could mean the end of projects like Apache. Good luck OpenSource!

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[»] And what about Nautilus...
by Darren Hart - Feb 4th 2001 01:40:31

I was surprised to find no mention of Eazel's Nautilus in this discussion. It also uses the attractive gecko, but has the added utility of eazel's services, and a nice file browser to boot. I was hesitant to use nautilus (I was afraid it would be too "smurfy"), but I have been pleasantly surprised with a functional, useful browser! And for a beta, it is relatively quick. I see the benefit in mozilla's own widget set... but it really bugs me to see some nasty looking browser in the middle of my slick desktop. (No I don't want to download a theme made to look like my gtk theme!) Why is it sometimes I see gtk scrollbars (in list boxes) and yet the page is still only scrollable with the mozilla scrollbars? Is there a way to get mozilla, galeon, nautilus, or anyone else for that matter to use a specific email client when you click on a link? I happen to really like evolution and would like to see it become the standard for the gnome desktop... but I don't want to have to copy an email address and paste it into evolution every time I could otherwise just click on a link!

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[»] Galeon ...if only
by Paul L Daniels - Feb 3rd 2001 00:49:49

The only thing holding me back on using Galeon is the fact that I need to get the entire Mozilla source lib (someone feel free to correct me here), afaik due to the licencing issues. For now I'll stick to Mozilla, it's reasonable in speed (on a K6-2 550 /128Mb) and at least the email works (except for some attachments when seem to dissapear, and can only be retrieved by save-as - extract using ripMIME). Regards.

--
Paul L Daniels http://www.pldaniels.com Linux/Unix systems Internet Development

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[»] Netscape vs IE
by Hamish - Feb 2nd 2001 16:09:28

There's a very good reason that the Netscape vs IE browser war is being lost to Netscape. And that's quality of software.. There was a time I could laugh at the windoze weenies with slow IE, crashing all the time, but the sad facts are that with every release Netscape browser has been getting bigger, uglier, and buggier... Take NS 6... Browser PAC downloads don't work, it's slow, not particularly good looking, and doesn't render properly on the screen. I'm sick & tired of a web page that has one line overlapping another, in-ability to specify more than 1 pop mail account on a single browser, having the browser run for 5 minutes & then crash somewhere in dns-helper using 100% CPU etc etc etc. The list goes on. It's pretty sad, but IE is doing a better job of rendering, email, un-bundling apps into separet co-operating execs and worse of all better stability (The IE on my windoze machine at work is way more stable than my Netscape under Linux! That's not funny, that's criminal).

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[»] "full-featured" web vs. "stripped-down" web
by Erik Pischel - Feb 2nd 2001 12:36:38

If you have a look at how usability is defined (ISO 9241), there are three criterions: Software is usability if it is effective, efficient and the user is content with it. Moreover, these three criterions have to be considered within the context the user uses the software. So of course some people explain about the "bloated" web because all they want to is to read a sparely formated text. WWW was meant to be like that back then at CERN. Not about animations and Applications. But the Web has evolved and is now used to deliver *Net-Applications*. Think about it: the WWW's value is more than a bunch of cross-linked text pages (or documents, to include graphics and sounds).There are a lot of apps out there and we use it through our browsers. So in this context, having lynx-like display is like working with console apps all the time. Some people might like that but most do not. This is for specialists, not for everybody. So I think it's quite natural that people added this and that to get a more GUI-like feeling with the web. And that will being continued... Of course it can be done this way and that way. But that's life. My own homepage is rather stripped down. I use CSS just to make the code more lean and to have borders around the text and that the text isn't so wide. Think about why newspapers have columns - because you can read more easily and also faster. I have a Java-Applet that presents different numerical Interpolation-Algorithms graphically and users can play around with it. This might be quite useful for cs students making a sense out of what their math prof told them... :) I find javascript very usefull in the case you're web-application has forms and you want to evaluate a form before sending it to the server, e.g. to have mandantory fields filled out. It is more convenient for the user when he gets acknowledgement right away rather than after a request/response turn-around. I could go on with this but I think I've shown that (at least some of) the HTML-additions can be useful. They can be misused, no doubt about that. I think it's the wrong direction to urge webmasters to use stripped-down web. There are a lot of badly designed web pages, but *forcing* someone to use this or that is *against* the idea of open source. erik

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[»] Scrap Moz. Keep Gecko
by Malkuse - Feb 1st 2001 13:11:37

I think I agree with the authour. The future could be rather dark.
My two cents on how to deal with the situation:

Scrap Mozilla. Take the Gecko part and start a new project dealing with a GPL'ed Gecko only. It's much smaller than the whole Mozilla project and seems far more interesting to work with too.
Reduce Gecko to a bononized rendering module and let it use other modules for HTML, Java, WhatEver interpretation.
I don't know how feasible this is. Maybe Gecko is already structured this way? IANotP (I Am Not on the Project). But: it would let anyone with a time limit write his favourite plugin .so that interprets some WhizBang nonsense such as Flash and still not have to worry about a browser or even HTML.

As for letting webadmins know their sites stink: I don't think so. We're still a fringe and fringe people usually get little attention unless they prove themselves. Giving negative feedback sure is NOT a way to prove anything.

harebra / klasa

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[»] Idea
by Slushpupie - Feb 1st 2001 00:18:35

I am not a hardcore programmer, but I have done some programming, and think that programming projects are much like term papers. You sit and write and write and write, and before you know it, nothing seems to change. Sure, a re-wording here and there, but its all the same. The best advice I got for those times is to throw away your paper, are re-write it. Perhaps that is what is needed with the browsers. We have been on the same track from very early on, and with many excelent ideas, but perhaps we need to come up with a new way of thinking. Netscape's idea of the plugin was briliant (or whoever came up with the idea first). I dont think anyone can deny that. The only problem with the existing structure, is plugins are only for embeded stuff (like flash, pdf, etc) Many of the new instant messageing clients are useing the plugin concept for protocols. This would mean the base browser would mearly be a fancy telnet. Straight socket connection, just text. Then, add a plugin to do HTTP1.0, but still it outputs just the text retrieved. Then another plugin for HTML, and one for XML too (hell, why not use the whole MIME concept ?). Then you have a working browser, highly expandable, and modularized such that an entry level programmer (or the summer teenager) can sit down, and write a better version of the javascript plugin, but not have to worry about things like the difference between HTTP1.0 HTTP1.1 and FTP. Or the seasoned Unix Guru can write a better SHTTP protocol plugin, but not need to worry about such things as flash and javascript. And using a common interface, all is well. Well, in theroy at least. I think half the problem is that Mozilla and Netscape (and even IE for that matter) were not designed for the pace at which the internet changes. If you make something *completely* modularized, then it can accept the challenge the internet puts forth.

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[»] I agree partially, Mozilla is the best alternative to IE, but can be improved
by olsner - Jan 31st 2001 09:40:59

I think that Jeff has a real point here. I agree that Mozilla is bloated and a BIG memory leak (or it uses all 90megs of ram :-). I do however think that Mozilla is a real competitor against IE, and better than the old Netscape's (4.xx) in features, however the stability and effectiivity of Mozilla can be argued. For example, my Mozilla uses like 90% of my CPU (450Mhz PII) when viewing a normal webpage. Before, I had 64megs of ram, and my machine was virtually unusable when running Mozilla - swapping like hell. I also agree that the source should be made simpler, because spare-time developers are a valueable resource. Conclusion: The focus on Mozilla development should (for now) be: - Cleaning up the code - Fixing bugs and testing - Improving effectivity and memory usage A good idea would be to move modules into separate projects (something like Jeff's idea to make a browser using only existing programs and make a X frontend for them), for example the document downloading part could be an easily replaceable module, so that a developer not satisfyed with the functions of the existing one could easily make a replacement. When a number of alternatives for the same function have been developed. I think, however, that Mozilla for now is in the right path, and would be VERY good in just a year or something.

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[»] De Mozilla Rerum
by fabian - Jan 31st 2001 09:01:20

I would like to react to most of the comments posted in this thread. My main concern is that, -- as usual -- people do not answer objectively. Even if they probably write comments with faith that what they write is correct, often it is not. In order not to fall in the same dangerous pit, I will talk only of what I know : Mozilla. Mozilla seems to be the heart of the discussion, yet many people despise it. There is only one thing that I have to admit : Mozilla is slow. However, there are some arguments in this thread that I don't agree with, the biggest being that Mozilla is standards compliant. Someone said he is trying to write complex CSS and IE displays it fine but not Mozilla. Now do the opposite : design the page for Mozilla -- i.e. write standards-compliant CSS -- and look at it in IE. It wil probably display correctly, because IE supports a lot of CSS, though less so than Mozilla. A lot of HTML, CSS, DOM, and JS does not work on Mozilla because it has been designed for IE. Please note that Mozilla itself is designed with those standards, so if it really supported only 50% of CSS etc, I think Mozilla would look like Marylin Manson on a bad day (aye aye aye flames!). I beg the web developers to test their code first against Mozilla then against IE, or at least both at the same time. Second, in response to some (including the author of the article) who said that becoming a Mozilla contributor is hard because it is such a large project, that is true. But if you really want to help, if you think before acting, if you know what you're doing, and if you respect -- very important word in Mozilla -- the other contributors, you will have no problem "stepping in the train". Mozilla is probably one of the largest open source project ever, and it has entered a very important part of its development : the launch to the impatient end-user that expects high-quality software. The project needs all of you to make it a leading browser in all the platforms it is available on -- let's basically say all the existing platforms --. Bashing and trolling will not help, however constructive and well-thought comments do not hurt, in most cases help a good discussion. Third, those of you complaining that Mozilla is not only a web browser, that choice was made two years ago, and you can no longer fight it -- or you can try to write your own, like Galeon perfectly did --. It is an architecture choice that people do not accept *yet*, just like XUL and the HTML composer and themes. The slowness is an overall problem in Mozilla, that is not caused "by XUL-shit" or "by silly themes", but by a lot of small performance problems, that are being fixed one by one and that make the product faster and faster. Last thing, Mozilla is still under development -- although personally I would have called 0.7 a first final release --, which means it is only begining to strike. Stay tuned for the next releases, and report the bugs -- against the latest builds, of course --. N.B.: I have never used Konqueror nor Opera, so I cannot compare. However against IE, Mozilla performs as well when it comes to stability (a couple of crashes a month), and the rendering speed is more or less the same. So basically I can chose between two great browsers, and that's what I like -- choice. I hope I did not upset anyone with such a long message, but I think it was worth the time. Regards, Fabian.

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[»] Stop thinking about apps. Look at KDE.
by Shayde - Jan 31st 2001 02:40:54

I was very much in this camp several months ago when I came to the (repeated) realization that Netscape is a completely lost cause. You can't compare an application that was -stopped- dead in its tracks 2 years ago (netscape) against something that Microsoft has been hammering away at constantly (IE). I put a lot of faith into Mozilla, and followed the development pretty closely as milestone after milestone was reached. It's not a bad browser. Pretty good in fact. Stable, fast, but... that's it. It's a browser (yes, i know, plus mail and news), but it's a static standalone app. Lets turn the page a bit. We all know about Netscape, IE, and Opera (okay, and Lynx and all that crapola as well). IE is not a browser. It's a tool layered on top of a very slick desktop environment. Folks need to seriously look at Konqueror, the browser embedded in KDE. This is a file browser, file manager, and web browser. It's very fast, totally standards compliant, and well integrated into the desktop. I've been running KDE 2.0.1 on several FreeBSD boxen for the last month or so, and lemme tell ya, the -only- reason I start Netscape or Mozilla is to see what'll BREAK on my new pages. (Hint: Netscape usually screws up). Stylesheets, java, javascript, everything works. Here's a nice little tidbit to make folks drool. I use Pine for my email (ah shaddup. i like it.). I hate getting URLs in email because I have to carefully cut n paste them into whatever browser I'm running (and Netscape has the annoying 'highlighted? OOPS! No cut/paste buffer!' problem). Under KDE, I highlight the URL in -any- app, and get a small popup window "Open in Konqueror? Open in Netscape? Edit and try again?" - normally, I open in konqueror, and off I go. These are the teeny joys of a well integrated desktop. Mozilla won't do this. IE does this only under Windows 2000 (I think), and it's a bit crunchy, and Netscape BWAHA. Stop thinking about little apps that do one thing. That won't win the wars anymore. Think along the larger picture.

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[»] Why not Opera?
by Ferluga - Jan 31st 2001 01:44:34

The new version 4.0beta5 is enough stable and works well on linux. It's light and fast and I use it for my daily browsing now. The 30 days limits (true days of use, not calendar days) resets on each new beta release and till now i didn't reached this limit. I prefer it also in the Windows environment, where the new release 5 of Opera is free. The linux version is still beta, lacks many features (java and javascript), but it's frequently updated; furthermore they may will make it free also on linux (they should do it!). OK, it's not open source, it is still proprietary and the free version displays an advertising banner (but it's not annoying), may be not 100% as rich as the bigger browsers(but i found less problems with Opera than with Netscape 4.7), but if you talk about MS IE and a "war of browsers" remember that also IE is not open, neither free (don't you pay to have Windows, to make it works?).

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[»] Spot on..
by StormKing - Jan 31st 2001 01:37:03

The article is spot on. My only disagreement is with the second proposed solution. Why should anyone be restricted from what's possible. I'm developing webpages that are meant to replace networked applications, I need the Java/Jscript to get it done. What we need is a hero to rise and lead open-source to a real browser. OS did Apache , it can do this. Maybe the boys at Redhat, Caldera, etc.. ought to chip in a programmer a distro. Hell it bothes me I'm writing this in IE, if I had IE's equivalent for Linux it'd be Sayonara Windows. 75% of the people I know have a computer only to surf ...

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[»] Stupid people want computers too
by electroninja - Jan 31st 2001 00:27:16

Its unfortunate really about Mozilla.. working in web design and tinkering with backend web with linux / apache i really started to like it, but when it comes down to the audience experience on the design side, coupled with strong support for proprietary server software, linux isn't really a consideration for most professional web ventures, and those sites tend to attract the most traffic by pushing the envelope.. or defining What the Web Can Be to regurgitate macromedias slogan.. ;o now the designers like myself who still use Mozilla on their NT / MacOS machines (mainly out of some twisted sense of community obligation i'm convinced) are often forced to wrestle with things as simple as CSS tags, table rendering bugs, form alignment etc in the endless cycle of starting out with a lovely idea, whipping it into shape in IE quite quickly, then bouncing back and forth between the horrible netscape 4.x complete fuck up renders, Mozilla's generally correct but awkward and sometimes pathetic pageloads. lynx is not even worth the time. Now its all well and good for a few sysadmins and perl hackers to complain about javascript and ActiveX and third party plugins, but at the end of the day, cooler site gets flooded with hits and the poor bastards still trying to make their fantastic page work in Netscape 4.7 get fuck all. Now maybe I'm wrong for wanting to add more than text lists, forms and hrefs, but unfortunately the world looks at the web mainly as it looks at the TV... but with a pointer. The average end user isn't interested in how a system works or why it was developped in a certain way.. simplicity is the key for these users, as far as interaction anyway. if it aint an email or username prompt fuck the keyboard. If we want end users to actually consider adopting an Open desktop it will absolutely need to be as seamless and command line free as MacOS / Win9x... Could we as a community develop a system so simple our great grandparents oculd operate it, but which would still afford the geeks among us total freedom? MacOSX has made quite a good attempt IMO... but I know if the linux community as a whole wants it to happen, why shouldnt it... One of the major gaping holes i feel in the Open Source desktop is the lack of a competitive, multi-codec digital video and audio player.. my 2 cents anyway...

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[»] Right idea, wrong solution
by prenzl - Jan 30th 2001 21:50:36

MS is kicking our butts with IE because it's a damn good piece of software that will carry the load for a long time for MS. Anonymous is correct to bring our attention to the problem, but (if I'm understanding correctly) he/she has the absolutely wrong solution. When I read Miguel de Icaza's paper "Let's Make Unix Not Suck" (http://primates.helixcode.com/~miguel/bongo-bong.html), I jumped for joy: Finally somebody gets it!! The free computer world is not dominated by only grumbly old C-dog kernel hackers. Maybe there are some forward-lookers. MS runs on COM, and COM is very, very good. MS has a very, very smooth overall desktop experience, and all of the resource-flush MS progamming world is geared towards getting your Windows app project up and running with minimal hassle. Anonymous's attitude that old-fashioned Unix C programs piped together is enough to outdo COM is ludicrous. de Icaza is trying desperately to get GNOME into the late 20th century, let alone 21st. Anonymous's attitudes are part of the problem, not the solution. I don't disagree that bloated programs suck, but the browser is going to carry the weight for the next 20-odd years--and yes, it will become an all-in-one, desktop-mini-OS. And for better or worse, it's going to be expanded greatly to deliver all manner of information, app and doc-oriented. .NET (and/or one of its competitors) will prevail. Look at Apple, they've done a very smart thing with XOS: they've wedded great GUI with Unix power and flexibility. IMHO, there simply is no future for the Unixae, free or otherwise, with crappy, crude GUI anymore. If Linux can offer a competitive desktop coupled with null tarif, you'll start to see OEM's take the bait, as the "MS tax" will instead stay in their pockets. But without a great browser on a super-smooth desktop, the whole thing falls apart. If I've totally flamed Anonymous unfairly, sorry, but I've seen so many Unix curmudgeons who couldn't care less if they ever stopped using Lynx or Netscape 3.0, that I've really had some doubts as to whether they really want this free thing to succeed or not. If I've missed Anonymous's point, let me know with some details.

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[»] Mozilla is no wrong, just point another direction
by Oliver Schulze L. - Jan 30th 2001 20:31:21

Yes, we are losing the browser war. I think that Mozilla is not wrong. The problem is that Mozilla is NOT doing a Internet browser. That's true. Thats what on head developer of Mozilla said. They have been doing the equivalent of AWT Java. I thing that if Mozilla have only the goal to make better Browser, all will be using it. Instead, Mozilla have been in great part reinventing the wheel. Look, motif is free now. Comparing Netscape 6 with IE 5.5 is just frustrating. Have you been using the Back and Forward buttons in IE an N6? Have you been doing multitasking in IE and N6? How about window content refreshing? Compare even a right button pop menu on the page. In all this points I have to admit that IE is better, and that is why Netscape is losing the war. Last, I have to say that all this I started to smell when jwz.org resign from Netscape. :-( P.D.: I want roaming access in N6.

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[»] what's this "we" shit?
by Mrs. Brisby - Jan 30th 2001 19:50:03

I'm sorry, but netscape never did anything for the "linux desktop". Linux isn't a desktop, it's an operating system kernel. And while we still do things the "UNIX way" (as opposed to the POSIX way; read on), it can never be a desktop. The UNIX way isn't really that good. It doesn't have much consistancy (the concept of devices being one of them), and setuid really does have to be the worst-abused idea ever. Most importantly, UNIX still requires fast fingers. With paths getting longer (how many times a day do you type: vi /usr/local/apache/conf/httpd.conf ?) it's getting Linux further and further away from the desktop market. What Netscape did was show many linuxish users know that someone was watching them. Someone was using their goods, and that someone was someone that manyones :D happened to root for; go netscape! Of course, Netscape was still garbage, and MSIE still far superior. But nobody seems to remember that. I still know many people that try and tell me that they think Netscape is still better. These people are called liars. They rationalize Microsofts Evil as an incapacity to write good software- or as some would suggest- steal it. Opera put out a world-class browser. It's fantastic. Although I think they should make the windows versions for-charge and the uber Opera's for free, but that's just me. I like opera; I'll never pay for it (nor use it until it is free), but I still like the way it works. Konq and Express and all those other silly guys. I admire it, but you guys are falling in the trap: writing a web browser isn't difficult; Designing one is. Mozilla proves this: Mozilla is garbage. It's not designed well in the slightest. But changes occur quickly- as do fixes... Now, Be really did a good job (I'm not so sure about this newfangled BeIA, but...) with giving us the structure of a POSIXish system, but keeping it away from the desktop. Don't think I'm suggesting a look-and-feel, or a new Beish window manager, or even the GNU Bedesktop (hahah). I'm saying that the more we make our Linux look like windows, or Be, or Macintosh, we actually distance ourselves further. X environments are getting slower and bulkier (how many enlightenment screens have you seen with crazy shaped windows?), and nobody seems to be asking why? I can guarantee that the makers of enlightenment aren't to blame; nor are the guys beheind Sawfish or Blackbox our saviors! Nor do I suggest a happy medium. What I suggest is a new way of thinking (feel free to add that silent G sound at the beginning...) This falls on those Linux packagers (sometimes called distributers, but this is confusing). They need to step forward and make their own "Linux-based" systems instead of "UNIX based, Linux systems". Beginning to understand? UNIX works really well in the server room, and I appreciate the authors mention of servers being distinctly uncomparable to desktop environments. But I disagree on one very important issue: UNIX will never take over the desktop. Never. So long as Linux is unixish, it will continue to fail here again and again. GNOME and KDE both look and feel very much like complete systems, but the more you use them, the more you find yourself with a dozen (or three) terminals, a netscape window (or twelve :) and your favorite mail client. How is this a desktop? We need LESS graphical apps. Less modules (so to speak), and someone to step up and say "this is how it's going to be done!" And this is how it's going to be done: Macs do the desktop rather well. Drag the program off the website or CD-ROM onto your harddisk and run. Done playing? drop the whole folder in the trash. Yes, I propose it really be that simple. And I think it can be when we have file-attributes (in the OS/2 sense, not in the Windows sense), resources, etc; things that can be associated with what the user actually has to deal with, but completely independent of their experience. How many Be users have tried putting font and style formatting into their source code? Ain't that spiffy? Now why is it that to do this under most Linuxish systems (and windows included) we would have to modify our compiler? As it stands right now, the author of the compiler would need to be involved in such a motion for the desktop, and I assure you these wizards have no interest in such silly concepts such as drag-and-drop. The kernel-folk will tell you one of three things (depending on who you ask): Wait for Linux 3; that shouldn't be in the kernel; and i don't have anything to do with that. On to other things; why does X *still* perform no desktop maintanence? It should have the window manager coupled with it. I hear screams that resemble "No! That's what makes X good!" but it's a lie! X does good things, and I still believe it to be a better remote desktop than anything else out there, but X still doesn't make for a local desktop. And unless anyone else has a better idea... I can appreciate being ignored, but "we" still have a long way to go. And I fear that unless enough people realize how far we've drifted off course, we'll never pick this one up.

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    [»] Re: what's this "we" shit?
    by Lepus - Feb 1st 2001 04:55:16


    > I'm sorry, but netscape never did
    > anything for the "linux desktop". Linux
    > isn't a desktop, it's an operating
    > system kernel. And while we still do
    > things the "UNIX way" (as opposed to the
    > POSIX way; read on), it can never be a
    > desktop.
    You have got the whole idea wrong, I believe. GNU/Linux is a free UNIX, and was created as such. Its goal is to be a free, open-source UNIX system, not to be a new Windows for the desktop lamers. (Even though some distributions try to imply this.)
    Of course GNU/Linux will never be a desktop system. But then again, who needs it to be? I use it, because it's a free UNIX system, with a real nice software base and support from many companies like Real inc., that other UNIces don't have.

    > Most importantly, UNIX still requires
    > fast fingers. With paths getting longer
    > (how many times a day do you type: vi
    > /usr/local/apache/conf/httpd.conf ?)
    > it's getting Linux further and further
    > away from the desktop market.
    If someone doesn't like to type commands and paths, he should use Windows. Actually, your idea is not wrong, we DO need an open-source desktop system which could take on Windows. But the idea about converting GNU/Linux into such is like converting a huge road rig into a family car. Sounds stupid, doesn't it?

    > UNIX works really well in the server
    > room, and I appreciate the authors
    > mention of servers being distinctly
    > uncomparable to desktop environments.
    > But I disagree on one very important
    > issue: UNIX will never take over the
    > desktop. Never. So long as Linux is
    > unixish, it will continue to fail here
    > again and again.
    I agree on this one, but then, I like it as a workstation OS, because I like UNIX. It was created as an OS for programmers, of course it isn't suitable for the masses of the desktop market.
    I have seen Windows, which is quite usable, and have seen MacOS which is way better than Windows and is a perfect desktop OS, but I wouldn't trade my GNU/Linux for a MacOS. Simply because I have different needs and wishes of an OS...

    > We need LESS graphical apps. Less
    > modules (so to speak), and someone to
    > step up and say "this is how it's going
    > to be done!"
    Now, now... Nobody could force such a system onto the GNU/Linux world. And nobody SHOULD, if you ask me. This idea of an open-source desktop OS, probably compliant with standards like X and the like, is worthy of notice. Probably a group is already working on something like this... But GNU/Linux shouldn't, and cannot be this system.

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    [»] Re: what's this "we" shit?
    by Danilo - Feb 3rd 2001 16:47:31


    > Most importantly, UNIX still requires
    > fast fingers. With paths getting longer
    > (how many times a day do you type: vi
    > /usr/local/apache/conf/httpd.conf ?)
    > it's getting Linux further and further
    > away from the desktop market.
    I cannot imagine anyone typing more anything longer several times a day. Some have heard of symbolic links, and look, your home directory (which may be /mnt/part4/home/users7/myname) is referenced via short "~". Is it that much of a headache typing 'vi ~/httpd.conf' or such? I find it much more difficult to browse to a file with mouse than that. Yet, I prefer command line for file management even in Windows (command.com in 9x, or cmd.exe in nt). And, back to discussion, I cannot see how IE is much more powerfull than Netscape 4.x. The problem manifests itself in everyone being a "web designer". Everyone wants a web site, regarding of that whether they have some content to offer. But, I have no knowledge of any real person that is visiting a web site to see it's design. Yes, appearance may add up to a more pleasant experience, but would anyone return to your site if there's no interesting content on it? I can illustrate this with an obvious example. Take a site which offers a online book for reading. Let's have two sites which offer the same book, one filled with graphics, JS, DHTML, server-side fonts, funny animations all over the book, and the other, offering only plain text of the book. The only question for you here is: which site would you prefer for reading the book? The Web is (supposed to be) about content, not looks. But yet, it's the philosophy of human kind to have strange opinions on what's good (why do you care about your hair style, what difference does it make to your life?), so we must expect the look of a web site to be one of factors. Yet, computer technology is constantly improving (is it???), and we're offered with different approaches to doing a same thing. When we get used to one thing, what can make us switch to another? If it can do the same things, but in a different ways, would you use it? I guess not, since it would require "relearning" what you already know. So, it's really hard to beat IE which comes bundled with MS OSes, and yet is NOT a bad browser. But the problem lays in that it brings too many new "features" that are not supported by anything else, so we come to the web which is not interoperable between platforms. And, is web about that? Limiting access to content? Everyone is allowed to make a new standard on the web (even a 15 year old), but noone can make the World accept it. The story goes over, and over again. Why is MIME here? Why are "Internet protocols" so simple, useable via telnet? Why is HTML so trivial? There were many reasons behind this, and yet, we're now turning them down. Yes, we need the GOOD and NEW platform/standard for the new multimedia and interactive content (now, it could even be called WPI - Web Programming Interface, since many want to create a site that will resemble of standard applications), but it needs to be simple and open (not proprietary). Is this where XHTML could fit in? We're yet to see. Next, Netscape 4.x can currently do anything IE can, sometimes in a much harder way (this is a problem only when _everyone_ thinks is capable of designing a web site; html is trivial but design is not). If we get to Mozilla/6.0 compatibles (NS6, Mozilla) we see that it's a tremendeous browser which is capable of doing many things IE can, but also many IE cannot. I used mozilla since very early snapshots/milestones. It was a headache then. But nowadays, it's actually stable and very configurable browser. When it comes to the first stable release, I'm sure it will offer very much. It's more than competitive, it could be a winner. But hardly if it would need a conscious decision to switch to it. First-time computer users don't know what is offered, what can they choose, and always take the first offered. This is MS/IE combination for now. The looks for this to change are tiny. Next, we come to the fact that what market wants is not neccessarily technicaly superior. Look at the internal MS problem. They released Win2K which is far more stable than it's Win9x predecessors, but it didn't go to well, because market wanted to have support for old partly DOS-based (some interrupts provided by DOS) applications/games. So, MS, even though offering technically superior product, reverts it's plans, and starts working on WinME. My reasoning might be wrong, but it seems that changes are not too welcome in computer world. Of course, this is not the case with open-source community, which readily accepts any innovative change. To summarize, proprietary standards are the only things that are bad, so anything MS does and makes it open is welcomed by me. What must be admitted is that sometimes non-technologically superior software wins the battle (this is probably not the case in NS/IE one, but definitely in case of Mozilla/IE one since Mozilla offers far more, though it's not yet stable). Next, my opinion whether Linux could be a desktop. Yes, even with it's current architecture. Nothing needs to be changed, the latest releases of GNOME and KDE obviously show that. Some of my friends Windows users, envy me on my desktop, and easy of use. They are considering switching to Linux just because of that. Looks, who would say that it matters so much. My perception of Linux is of a system that can be customized to anything, whether it be desktop, server or a system that drives my home. That's where it's success is. You DO have the choice, if you like powerfull GUI looks, fast server platform, whatever, Linux will do for you an excellent job. And last (but also the least), if you find my English bad, never consider me for a English proffessor.

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    [»] Re: what's this "we" shit?
    by Danilo - Feb 3rd 2001 16:47:34


    > Most importantly, UNIX still requires
    > fast fingers. With paths getting longer
    > (how many times a day do you type: vi
    > /usr/local/apache/conf/httpd.conf ?)
    > it's getting Linux further and further
    > away from the desktop market.
    I cannot imagine anyone typing more anything longer several times a day. Some have heard of symbolic links, and look, your home directory (which may be /mnt/part4/home/users7/myname) is referenced via short "~". Is it that much of a headache typing 'vi ~/httpd.conf' or such? I find it much more difficult to browse to a file with mouse than that. Yet, I prefer command line for file management even in Windows (command.com in 9x, or cmd.exe in nt). And, back to discussion, I cannot see how IE is much more powerfull than Netscape 4.x. The problem manifests itself in everyone being a "web designer". Everyone wants a web site, regarding of that whether they have some content to offer. But, I have no knowledge of any real person that is visiting a web site to see it's design. Yes, appearance may add up to a more pleasant experience, but would anyone return to your site if there's no interesting content on it? I can illustrate this with an obvious example. Take a site which offers a online book for reading. Let's have two sites which offer the same book, one filled with graphics, JS, DHTML, server-side fonts, funny animations all over the book, and the other, offering only plain text of the book. The only question for you here is: which site would you prefer for reading the book? The Web is (supposed to be) about content, not looks. But yet, it's the philosophy of human kind to have strange opinions on what's good (why do you care about your hair style, what difference does it make to your life?), so we must expect the look of a web site to be one of factors. Yet, computer technology is constantly improving (is it???), and we're offered with different approaches to doing a same thing. When we get used to one thing, what can make us switch to another? If it can do the same things, but in a different ways, would you use it? I guess not, since it would require "relearning" what you already know. So, it's really hard to beat IE which comes bundled with MS OSes, and yet is NOT a bad browser. But the problem lays in that it brings too many new "features" that are not supported by anything else, so we come to the web which is not interoperable between platforms. And, is web about that? Limiting access to content? Everyone is allowed to make a new standard on the web (even a 15 year old), but noone can make the World accept it. The story goes over, and over again. Why is MIME here? Why are "Internet protocols" so simple, useable via telnet? Why is HTML so trivial? There were many reasons behind this, and yet, we're now turning them down. Yes, we need the GOOD and NEW platform/standard for the new multimedia and interactive content (now, it could even be called WPI - Web Programming Interface, since many want to create a site that will resemble of standard applications), but it needs to be simple and open (not proprietary). Is this where XHTML could fit in? We're yet to see. Next, Netscape 4.x can currently do anything IE can, sometimes in a much harder way (this is a problem only when _everyone_ thinks is capable of designing a web site; html is trivial but design is not). If we get to Mozilla/6.0 compatibles (NS6, Mozilla) we see that it's a tremendeous browser which is capable of doing many things IE can, but also many IE cannot. I used mozilla since very early snapshots/milestones. It was a headache then. But nowadays, it's actually stable and very configurable browser. When it comes to the first stable release, I'm sure it will offer very much. It's more than competitive, it could be a winner. But hardly if it would need a conscious decision to switch to it. First-time computer users don't know what is offered, what can they choose, and always take the first offered. This is MS/IE combination for now. The looks for this to change are tiny. Next, we come to the fact that what market wants is not neccessarily technicaly superior. Look at the internal MS problem. They released Win2K which is far more stable than it's Win9x predecessors, but it didn't go to well, because market wanted to have support for old partly DOS-based (some interrupts provided by DOS) applications/games. So, MS, even though offering technically superior product, reverts it's plans, and starts working on WinME. My reasoning might be wrong, but it seems that changes are not too welcome in computer world. Of course, this is not the case with open-source community, which readily accepts any innovative change. To summarize, proprietary standards are the only things that are bad, so anything MS does and makes it open is welcomed by me. What must be admitted is that sometimes non-technologically superior software wins the battle (this is probably not the case in NS/IE one, but definitely in case of Mozilla/IE one since Mozilla offers far more, though it's not yet stable). Next, my opinion whether Linux could be a desktop. Yes, even with it's current architecture. Nothing needs to be changed, the latest releases of GNOME and KDE obviously show that. Some of my friends Windows users, envy me on my desktop, and easy of use. They are considering switching to Linux just because of that. Looks, who would say that it matters so much. My perception of Linux is of a system that can be customized to anything, whether it be desktop, server or a system that drives my home. That's where it's success is. You DO have the choice, if you like powerfull GUI looks, fast server platform, whatever, Linux will do for you an excellent job. And last (but also the least), if you find my English bad, never consider me for a English proffessor.

    [reply] [top]


    [»] Re: what's this "we" shit?
    by Danilo - Feb 3rd 2001 16:47:54


    > Most importantly, UNIX still requires
    > fast fingers. With paths getting longer
    > (how many times a day do you type: vi
    > /usr/local/apache/conf/httpd.conf ?)
    > it's getting Linux further and further
    > away from the desktop market.
    I cannot imagine anyone typing more anything longer several times a day. Some have heard of symbolic links, and look, your home directory (which may be /mnt/part4/home/users7/myname) is referenced via short "~". Is it that much of a headache typing 'vi ~/httpd.conf' or such? I find it much more difficult to browse to a file with mouse than that. Yet, I prefer command line for file management even in Windows (command.com in 9x, or cmd.exe in nt). And, back to discussion, I cannot see how IE is much more powerfull than Netscape 4.x. The problem manifests itself in everyone being a "web designer". Everyone wants a web site, regarding of that whether they have some content to offer. But, I have no knowledge of any real person that is visiting a web site to see it's design. Yes, appearance may add up to a more pleasant experience, but would anyone return to your site if there's no interesting content on it? I can illustrate this with an obvious example. Take a site which offers a online book for reading. Let's have two sites which offer the same book, one filled with graphics, JS, DHTML, server-side fonts, funny animations all over the book, and the other, offering only plain text of the book. The only question for you here is: which site would you prefer for reading the book? The Web is (supposed to be) about content, not looks. But yet, it's the philosophy of human kind to have strange opinions on what's good (why do you care about your hair style, what difference does it make to your life?), so we must expect the look of a web site to be one of factors. Yet, computer technology is constantly improving (is it???), and we're offered with different approaches to doing a same thing. When we get used to one thing, what can make us switch to another? If it can do the same things, but in a different ways, would you use it? I guess not, since it would require "relearning" what you already know. So, it's really hard to beat IE which comes bundled with MS OSes, and yet is NOT a bad browser. But the problem lays in that it brings too many new "features" that are not supported by anything else, so we come to the web which is not interoperable between platforms. And, is web about that? Limiting access to content? Everyone is allowed to make a new standard on the web (even a 15 year old), but noone can make the World accept it. The story goes over, and over again. Why is MIME here? Why are "Internet protocols" so simple, useable via telnet? Why is HTML so trivial? There were many reasons behind this, and yet, we're now turning them down. Yes, we need the GOOD and NEW platform/standard for the new multimedia and interactive content (now, it could even be called WPI - Web Programming Interface, since many want to create a site that will resemble of standard applications), but it needs to be simple and open (not proprietary). Is this where XHTML could fit in? We're yet to see. Next, Netscape 4.x can currently do anything IE can, sometimes in a much harder way (this is a problem only when _everyone_ thinks is capable of designing a web site; html is trivial but design is not). If we get to Mozilla/6.0 compatibles (NS6, Mozilla) we see that it's a tremendeous browser which is capable of doing many things IE can, but also many IE cannot. I used mozilla since very early snapshots/milestones. It was a headache then. But nowadays, it's actually stable and very configurable browser. When it comes to the first stable release, I'm sure it will offer very much. It's more than competitive, it could be a winner. But hardly if it would need a conscious decision to switch to it. First-time computer users don't know what is offered, what can they choose, and always take the first offered. This is MS/IE combination for now. The looks for this to change are tiny. Next, we come to the fact that what market wants is not neccessarily technicaly superior. Look at the internal MS problem. They released Win2K which is far more stable than it's Win9x predecessors, but it didn't go to well, because market wanted to have support for old partly DOS-based (some interrupts provided by DOS) applications/games. So, MS, even though offering technically superior product, reverts it's plans, and starts working on WinME. My reasoning might be wrong, but it seems that changes are not too welcome in computer world. Of course, this is not the case with open-source community, which readily accepts any innovative change. To summarize, proprietary standards are the only things that are bad, so anything MS does and makes it open is welcomed by me. What must be admitted is that sometimes non-technologically superior software wins the battle (this is probably not the case in NS/IE one, but definitely in case of Mozilla/IE one since Mozilla offers far more, though it's not yet stable). Next, my opinion whether Linux could be a desktop. Yes, even with it's current architecture. Nothing needs to be changed, the latest releases of GNOME and KDE obviously show that. Some of my friends Windows users, envy me on my desktop, and easy of use. They are considering switching to Linux just because of that. Looks, who would say that it matters so much. My perception of Linux is of a system that can be customized to anything, whether it be desktop, server or a system that drives my home. That's where it's success is. You DO have the choice, if you like powerfull GUI looks, fast server platform, whatever, Linux will do for you an excellent job. And last (but also the least), if you find my English bad, never consider me for a English proffessor.

    [reply] [top]


    [»] Re: what's this "we" shit?
    by Oliver Schulze L. - Feb 4th 2001 18:11:15


    > Most importantly, UNIX still requires
    > fast fingers. With paths getting longer
    > (how many times a day do you type: vi
    > /usr/local/apache/conf/httpd.conf ?)
    > it's getting Linux further and further
    > away from the desktop market.
    >

    Come on, do you know the Ctrl R in Bash? Try presing Crtl r and then httpd.conf, the press ENTER or Crtl e to change the command.

    [reply] [top]


[»] Browser architecture needs to emulate Apache
by Stuart D. Gathman - Jan 30th 2001 18:05:30

A good browser design need not be troubled by the turbulent web standards waters. The core browser should provide efficient URL fetching only. This is not trivial, and involves implementing HTTP1.0/HTTP1.1/FTP/etc Modules can be compiled in or dynamically loaded. Same idea as Netscape plugins - except almost everthing is a plugin - and the plugins can interact with the core at more levels. (E.g. getting control when an APPLET tag is encountered.) Standard modules would include plain HTML rendering, FTP browsing. Optional modules would be: Java (via APPLET tag and *external* JVM please). The external JVM should run as 'nobody' in case there are bugs in the AppletSecurityManager. Javascript (because my bank requires it :-( ) MIDI, WAV, AU, etc. Latest XLM bandwagon. etc. This doesn't help with the problem of proprietary formats implemented by proprietary plugins available for 1 or 2 platforms only. (Boo Flash). In defense of Java for web pages, let me point out that it does have a security model and that a plugin interface for an external JVM is a doable open source project. Note that free Javascript implementations are available that need just a plugin interface.

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[»] konqueror actually does a good job
by Øyvind Kolås - Jan 30th 2001 15:57:59

konqueror of kde2.0 does a really nice job of rendering CSS2 pages, it loads much faster than mozilla/ns6.. when I design webpages,.. I'm using a lot of CSS2,.. and test them in Opera, Konqueror, IE, w3m, links, lynx and ns4.. even the tty based browsers do what I expect of them,.. shoul I really bother about the flakey renderings from netscape 4.7x?

--
-- Out of bounds, prepare to malloc eternity.

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[»] The Decline of Western Surf-ilization.
by The Revenant - Jan 30th 2001 15:49:54

This is bad news. Admittedly, I've lost all respect for Netscape since v3.01Gold, but IE is just about the worst possible browser ever to appear on the market -- I don't care how many bells & whistles it supports now. Just because high speed connections are becoming commonplace doesn't mean we have to be inundated with flashy crap that sucks up all available bandwidth. Take this one geek's point of view: The 'Net was supposed to be everything-friendly. It's supposed to allow anyone to go out in search of information, regardless of equipment, location, source, or connection. The blind acceptance of proprietary and incompatible code not only alienates a great many just to satiate a rare few, but do I _really_ want to see my processor usage shoot up to 100% and stay there just for some stupid web page? Not bloody likely. If there's any justice left, Opera will start to soar, and/or Mozilla will quit the milestone race and release something stable... ...And people will learn. Hopefully.

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[»] All is not lost
by Alex Page - Jan 30th 2001 13:30:39

Although I've yet to convince them to lose the Java and JavaScript, our company's latest website development project is intended to be compliant on all of Windows IE, Mac IE, Netscape and Mozilla. The Java is not essential to view the site, just the pretty add-ons. Hell, it's vaguely useable in lynx...

Our intranet has gone from an IE-only botch to something approximating interoperability.

I don't see what the problem with supporting CSS is - it was intended to replace the mess of tag information that made HTML parsers so hard to write in the first place. It's a good specification, fairly simple and based on open standards.

The important thing is for all of us who work in IT to pressure our managers, who almost universally don't understand our complaints, that a little extra effort in development will gain us a wider (if not much wider) user base, and kudos among the People Who Count...

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[»] WTF ?
by r1234 - Jan 30th 2001 11:44:14

Basic correctness would be to bring back the user comments. Hell, the article is a ridiculous FUD/flamebait, about 100 comments are made, then the site changes, the article re-appear but the comments are DROPPED ???

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[»] Forget Netscape ... IE is alive?
by raveboy - Jan 30th 2001 10:36:00

I created a new web site. In former days I always tried to make it also NS conform, but Netscape still does not support what IE implemented now over 2!!! - yes TWO years ago. I think that ignoring the sings of time is really stupid. I want to have Style sheets and I used them. I use the layer-technique to simulate drop down menus. Well the work perfect on IE, but don't look that nice on NS. What should I do? Almost every body now uses IE with 1024x768 resolution. In future I will also include Flash. Flash is also ported to the most common OS'es. So I want to have all the new stuff, but: is it really new??? That's the question. So OpenSourceCommunity: write a browser which supports CSS 2.0, Java and HTML.

--
Martin

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    [»] Re: Forget Netscape ... IE is alive?
    by Mark Ogden - Feb 9th 2001 08:26:41


    > I created a new web site. In former days
    > I always tried to make it also NS
    > conform, but Netscape still does not
    > support what IE implemented now over
    > 2!!! - yes TWO years ago. I think that
    > ignoring the sings of time is really
    > stupid. I want to have Style sheets and
    > I used them. I use the layer-technique
    > to simulate drop down menus. Well the
    > work perfect on IE, but don't look that
    > nice on NS. What should I do?
    What should you do? I think read up on HTML some more. Make an effort and you'll find that pretty much everything IE can do NS can do in a much more stable manner. They just do things differently. I have made several fancy web sites using JS, DHTML, CSS, etc. and managed to get them working equally well cross-browser.

    [reply] [top]


[»] Technology changes
by Richard Jones - Jan 30th 2001 08:40:06

I have tried to convince our web design team never to use javascript, activex or flash. However, there is always something people want to do that requires the little "extras" that pure HTML doesn't provide. I tell them "It'll break if someone accesses it using Netscape", but this for some reason, this is never seen as a Bad Thing. More realistically though, why should we expect people not to use technology once it has arrived? How many people would choose to give up mobile phones because they don't all have the most modern features? I would love to see Microsoft port IE5.5 to Linux, (or have someone build a viable equivalent) because then I could browse the web using my favourite operating system, and not need a dual boot system. I don't think it'll happen though :-(

--
Richard Jones -Don't climb trees to look for fish

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    [»] Re: Technology changes
    by Chris S. - Jan 30th 2001 10:17:29

    Truly, why should features be given up that although not always useful, are aesthetically pleasing just to support the open source community? Doing my job, I am admittedly stuck in a Windows environment so I use IE and enjoy all the websites that make good use of many of the features that it has the NS lacks. Until Netscape/Mozilla comes out with something a bit less bloated that supports more of what I want to see and more of what I want to do, IE will continue to be the browser of, if not 'choice', at least preference.

    [reply] [top]


[»] previous comments?
by - GALAXY - - Jan 30th 2001 08:28:38

hui ? there used to be previous comments. where have they all been gone ? over 81 comments lost ?

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[»] The way out WOULD be simple, just nobody seems to try it
by Lepus - Jan 30th 2001 05:12:10

Well, well... We have a problem. Many web pages are written in shitty html code, but IE does display them correctly. Netscape doesn't. What do we do? We bloody well write a browser that DOES display shitty code correctly, and works under Linux!
The main problem is NOT javascript and Flash and online music and so on. The main problem are buggy pages which are rendered by netscape as a plain empty white sheet, or displayed but with buttons and images overlapping text and so on... Once we have a browser that CAN cope with buggy html code, we are on our way to victory. We can't change the script kiddies who make the buggy pages, but we can change our browsers.
Once we have this, we can advance further. Add support for Javascript, Java, online midi music, and so on... In a modular fashion, of course.

About NS6, I believe the programmers doing it are out of their right mind, and as much as I have seen of Mozilla, it's basically the same beast. Why the hell do I need an Aol messenger in my browser? It reminds me of integrating a TV into a car, but in a way that the engine must be running if I want to watch it... "Doing everything I need of the Internet..." Earth to Netscape, should we send a psychiatrist? -_-
And the bugs...If I install it into another directory as the default (/usr/local/netscape), it sipmply won't work. Segfaults during startup. Tough luck, I like to put software like this under /opt... And if it IS installed where it should be, it is still buggy. The AOL messenger generated 3 crashes in 2 minutes, after reinstalling without it, Netscape crashed on its own every 3 minutes only... Laughable.

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[»] going back??? I don't think so.
by djfxsi - Jan 29th 2001 21:27:46

now I read half of the discussion but can't believe the author is comlaining about the new stuff added to the web. Now if some people can't deal with something don't blame on that something isn't good. I admit there are a lot more things we can do now and it can be very complicated to learn. But it's unfair to deny their usefulness. XML IS very useful! I've seen so many close minded people who think HTML can do all the job. That's true, but they forgot what makes a good web site--it's content and management. XML does this job well! Don't because few none responsible and unskilled people misuse some of the tools such as javascript then complain it's bad. remember no one is stop you from writing simple web pages using just HTML. People use new technologies have their specific reasons, so don't think you are so smart (using Linux doesn't making any idiots special) and say (or suggest) something like "HTML can do everything, let's go back to simple web page."

Remember it's all the businesses driving Internet today. All the new tools are essential to businesses. Without businesses on the web, heh...I don't know what you are going to be now.

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[»] Why IE is a good browser and why some of the Linux-heads should shut up
by WalkingBeard - Jan 29th 2001 11:04:49

Internet Explorer is a fabulous browser. That's all I should have to say, but in fact I feel I should say more. IE is a fabulous browser because it supports. It supports almost everything that needs to be supported by a commercial web browser and some. And yes, that is because it is owned and developed by Microsoft and as we are all well aware, MS is a darn site better off than most.

And until a browser walks into the world that spotlessly and seamlessly supports what IE does, nobody is going to touch the said browser's increase in users. Joe Bloggs doesn't give a bit of fluff that Microsoft made IE and quite frankly, nor do I. It's superb. It's fast (even if it does load a lot of stuff it needs when Windows starts) and vaguely reliable (although ironically, I've had it throw GPFs and all sorts only the Microsoft site).

All the stuff that some of the above commentators have written about not wanting CSS and font tags et al is pure rubbish. If you want a cut-down browser, that's your lookout, but the likes of Flash and diverse fonts *are* the way forward. If my mum was confronted by a dull grey screen full of Courier text, she'd switch off completely. If she's confronted by a moving images that buzzes and beeps and plays music, she'll be enthusiastic to make the web work for her. This isn't a simple Microsoft dominated thing like the desktop OS market. It's an innovation and application thing and currently, Microsoft is the leader. IE is their finest product.

I don't like Windows. I don't like MS, it's too large and mostly stifles better alternatives in the software market. I want Microsoft to be split up, because I truly believe that Windows will die not so long afterwards, which is a good thing. But I don't want Microsoft to go completely, because they make Internet Explorer which is by far the best web browser available. When Konqueror supports what IE supports, I'll quite happily agree that Microsoft's time is due.

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[»] Make it easier to become a mozilla contributor
by Andreas Franke - Jan 28th 2001 20:32:44

One [approach] is to have more people working on Mozilla.

This is a good one. Feel free to submit constructive comments here.

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[»] War? I beg to differ.
by S4 - Jan 28th 2001 19:17:38

It's not a war, it's a slaughter. And rightfully so. As a web developer I can do so much cool stuff with IE, and very little with any other browser. I can make full fledged web based applications with controls bound to data sources and functional stuff that can run totally client side. I could restrict myself to pretty little pages that are rendered totally server side and have a bit of functionality, but not much, or I could make these really cool applications. This is the problem with people like you (the author) and the people who agree with him (or her). Anything microsoft comes out with, you will automatically hate, in fact you will have to hate it by virtue of the fact that it's created by MS. I hate all the stupid politics behind this argument and arguments like these. Most people couldn't care less if IE just threw away all the standards that they do still adhere to, and make their own internet with their own protocols and standards and whatnot. The coolest product is the one that people are going to want to use. And the coolest browser around right now is IE. F$$$ companies and groups that can't keep up. F%%% the organizations that make the standards. IE is damned cool, and the web is far more functional because of it.

Wake up and smell the coffee kids. There are few people who actually care about the points you bring up, and most of them are people who don't really matter too much at the end of the day. Right now IE is the best. People will therefore use IE, and any web-designer with an ounce of common sense will write apps that take advantage of the cool stuff you can do with IE. That's how the world works because it makes sense. If you want to live in the dark ages then fine, but one day you'll get off your high horse and buy a car. Or you'll fade away. These arguments are getting so damned tiresome. One day people will realize that MS is huge because they're damned good at what they do. To all your programmers who want to write a browser that anyone will use, Copy Microsoft. Sure, make it Open Source so at the end of the day you can sleep easy, but take the browser that is doing everything right, and copy that.

Don't write me an email saying my sites look bad in netscape or mozilla or whatever you use. I couldn't care less.

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    [»] Re: War? I beg to differ.
    by Mike Adams - Feb 21st 2001 03:06:19


    > .... Anything microsoft
    > comes out with, you will automatically
    > hate, in fact you will have to hate it
    > by virtue of the fact that it's created
    > by MS. I hate all the stupid politics
    > behind this argument and arguments like
    > these. Most people couldn't care less if
    > IE just threw away all the standards
    > that they do still adhere to, and make
    > their own internet with their own
    > protocols and standards and whatnot. The
    > coolest product is the one that people
    > are going to want to use. And the
    > coolest browser around right now is IE.
    I agree (see my SEVERAL posts in this thread)...M$ got big by telling everyone what they wanted to hear and showing them what they wanted to see (biggest PR dept & budget in history)..don't bash M$ for what they do do (doodoo get it ) well , don't bitch, learn from it and do better! The DOJ rulings will only help here..OpenSource needs to out MicroSoft MicroSoft...it's Embrace and Extend!

    [reply] [top]


[»] Not Exactly
by Michael B. Allen - Jan 28th 2001 16:48:40


strength of the Open Source movement is that its components are highly modular.

Not at all. Let's say you wan't to use netbios sockets. Can you extract that "module" from Samba? No. This is any area where hobbyist programmers more often than not lack conviction.

The modularity is much stronger than the (IMHO rubbish) OO methodology advocated by dubious software engineering textbooks.

At the c level you really can't call something OO. That requires dynamic binding an techniques that provoke polymorphic behavior. It's a tool though. Nothing more. Sometimes OO enthusists get a little carried away with it but when used properly the effect is unparalleled using mear "moduler" techniques. The real problem is that 9/10 people using an OO language such as C++ or Java are not writing OO code. They think they are but in reality it's moduler at best. This leads to a bit of confusion over the value of OO because there are very few good examples of it.

doesn't matter how the internals of the FTP server are structured. It's an object.

I agree with you here. I'm a big advocate of the UNIX theology where tools are designed to do one thing very well. Collectively they become more usefull than the sum of their parts in ways than can be very clever.

But an even better model would be if the FTP client interface was not defined at the RFC level but rather at the language level. The c API for using FTP should be well defined and stored in a shared library with other network clients. Then Mozilla and friends should use that. That's what they should be shooting for.

Mike

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[»] Why not to use IE???
by sofar - Jan 28th 2001 16:04:22

The answer is simple as allways:

In order to use IE, you need to purchase Windows, thus paying $$ to Microsoft. Any viable alternative that's free will therefore (how clumsy, big or buggy) be a major alternative. Netscape (both linux and solaris) versions
have absolutely no problem running CSS/JavaScript pages
I authored, who needs java? I'm happy, don't need all the
fuzz! Anybody got an argument why I should use IE???

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[»] No... just looks that way
by Jeffery - Jan 28th 2001 14:30:12

We aren't losing anything right now.
MS-IE refuses to take ground.. they are in the lead but they refuse to comply with existing standards. Microsoft is also being forced to dump Java and websites won't be able to so the same leaving Netscape pritty much in the lead.

Konquer ends up showing up as MS-IE.. They both pretend to be Netscape/Modzilla and most scripts just recognise "Modzilla/Netscape - Netscape" and "Pretends to be Modzilla/Netscape - MSIE" also when scripts filter MSIE out of the "Modzilla" report.. in those cases Konquer will show up as Netscape... eather way only the older KFM shows up as Konqer.. the newer one dose not...

The winner will be the one who finishes current standards support...
Piriod...

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[»] We are losing the browser war
by Régis Trudel - Jan 28th 2001 11:44:08

As Michael Mauch suggested, I downloaded Beonex (www.beonex.com) on my Windows machine and found it has all sorts of nice features. The only thing I do not like so far is that when you receive mail you get the full header and I have so far found no way to turn that off. I suggest you give Beonex a try and may be articles as pessimistic as us losing the broser war will not affect you as much.

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[»] IE bad
by nhoize - Jan 28th 2001 11:36:24

IE may appear to be stable and functional, but it is a security nightmare. if you take a look at http://www.guninski.com/index.html you will see that IE has had several serious (code execution) security issues, most of which did not have a patch available for weeks at a time. Even when a patch is available, the typical user does not patch IE. So, revel in the bloated mozilla, the closed source memory leaking opera (mine is using 50MB to render 3 web sites), and all the up and coming open source *nix browsers. *nix may be losing the browser war, but it is winning the pre-installed win32 remote trojan war. :)

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[»] Drop HTML support?
by Andreas Rueckert - Jan 28th 2001 10:07:05

Why not drop support of a standard that is not well defined and went a bit out of control during the browser wars (NS/IE that is). Focus on XHTML, start with a well defined DTD, use as much code generation as possible, use models where possible, focus on XHTML and let anything else (Javascript, Java, etc) out of the core. Add a plug-in API, so external modules can access the document to interpret those features.

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[»] Browser wars?
by hansen - Jan 28th 2001 07:58:52

Tis was an interesting read, but even if I speak for myself alone, I think this is something you should try and understand. When I use a program, it is not because I'm a fan of that program. I don't buy Intel based systems, because I'm a fan of intel, and I don't buy Microsoft products, because I'm a fan of Microsoft. And I don't use Linux, because I'm a fan of Linus Torvalds.

I use a program, or product, to get done what I need get done, within the limits that I have surrounding me. Such as financial, lingual, or any other constraint that effects my choice.

Any software company, that is or will program or create products that are directed towards the FAN's request is destined to fail miserably(TM).

Every operating system, browser or other product has a load of bugs. Its a question for the leaders of the project, to find what to solve and what not to. And to demand anything from Netscape, which is producing a high quality browser for multiple platfroms, that most of us are getting free of charge, borders on the extreme. Anyone of you tried out Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator? Ever noticed that machines flying below you tend to fly slower than you? Ever noticed, that you can fly sideways? and that you can stall sideways? It's full of bugs, but has a load of fans all around the world. However, there is a proper place, to demonstrate your demands for a better product ... because its a product you are paying big money for.

There are no browser wars, this is not a contest for which there is only one winner... or at least I hope not, because the long term consequences would be catastrophic.

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[»] take a look at ePSXe
by Dmitry Rozmanov - Jan 28th 2001 07:19:30

Now I try PSX emultors and take a look at ePSXe - http://www.psxemu.com/epsxe.shtml and http://www.epsxe.com/. It is a quite complicate piece of software but it uses smart and clean design. And as a result there are a lot of competing modules and plug-ins. Cool. I think it is the way to go and in brouser's case.

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